Curse

Aniewiel · Jul 27, 2005, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoDiamonds

Griefing is taking action to cause other people grief, as a goal in of itself. That's clearly what this is.

Even if everyone agreed that someone "deserved it", that still doesn't make it right.

But now we're getting into ethics and morality, and obviously that's not the point here.

Are you kidding? LOL! That's what every poster in this thread has been getting into.

Have we beaten this dead horse enough YET?

Sanji · Jul 27, 2005, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

Have we beaten this dead horse enough YET?

You say that...but you are still here. Looks like you enjoy the thrashing of deceased equine as much as anyone.

Aniewiel · Jul 27, 2005, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

You say that...but you are still here. Looks like you enjoy the thrashing of deceased equine as much as anyone.

Actually, Sanji, it is my JOB here to read through all this nonsense and make sure it doesn't get out of hand or turn into a flame war. Gee and I make such big bucks doing it too. /sarcasm

Numa Pompilius · Jul 27, 2005, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Pah, this post will of course get deleted too, but I agree with Silmor, and perhaps he can see it before it gets deleted: DrSLUGfly is clearly a griefer, the lowest of scum, and I don' care that he's a good forum participant. I can't believe he posted about it like it was something to be proud of. Temerity? It was asshattery.

I find it disturbing that so many people, including a moderator, heck, even _Talesin_ who's usually level-headed, support such an obvious act of wanton griefing.

"They had it coming" because they failed to communicate what they were doing? Yeah, there's a model for cooperation across ages, cultures and languages we will certainly want to adopt.
Pffff.

Paul Templar · Jul 27, 2005, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Good job this type of thing happens way too much in missions
once we did the first part of the bonus were standing outside the part to finish the bonus I tell the others the bonus this way etc
So the one who wanted to race through the mission and not do the bonus started drawing all over the mini map so others couldnt see directions
They followed him so I left
Did say it was for bonus
Dont put up with it and dont let people like this win just leave the others who are awake will see and know what is going on
and just make another team

Darkest Dawn · Jul 27, 2005, 08:21 PM // 20:21

I can agree with the OP's frustration. I'm sure it was not the best response, but I feel the pain....

Sanji · Jul 27, 2005, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

Actually, Sanji, it is my JOB here to read through all this nonsense and make sure it doesn't get out of hand or turn into a flame war. Gee and I make such big bucks doing it too. /sarcasm

"I wish this thread would die"/"Beating a Dead Horse" posts have nothing to do with you performing your duties as a Mod and no matter how you look at it, is ironic and counterproductive.

genghiskhen · Jul 27, 2005, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

Aniewiel, it's regrettable that you haven't wisened up beyond "teaching other players a lesson". There is no excuse for griefing, period. Endorsing any kind of griefing is endorsing all griefing. This is not how fellow players should treat each other, regardless of circumstances.

That makes about as much sense as zero tolerance in our schools.

Aniewiel · Jul 27, 2005, 08:43 PM // 20:43

OK let's try this one more time: I don't support what he did. I understand what he did. Is that simple enough? LOL!

It's sort of like understanding why a woman, whose been beaten by her husband for years, suddenly kills him. I don't SUPPORT the killing but I sure understand it.

Slug had a bad day. Fine. Maybe he had some other issues going on that affected his judgement. But of course some of you sanctimonious souls never have bad days and do dumb stuff, right?

*applies a few more lashes to the now skinless carcass that was a horse*

Algren Cole · Jul 27, 2005, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

OK let's try this one more time: I don't support what he did. I understand what he did. Is that simple enough? LOL!

It's sort of like understanding why a woman, whose been beaten by her husband for years, suddenly kills him. I don't SUPPORT the killing but I sure understand it.

Slug had a bad day. Fine. Maybe he had some other issues going on that affected his judgement. But of course some of you sanctimonious souls probably never have bad days and do dumb stuff, right?

providing these morons with replies to posts regarding your duties with this website shouldn't be something you comply with....you have an authoritative presence here because you were asked to....it's not up to them whether or not you are doing your job properly...nor is it their right to be catered to like children by providing them with reasons.....

btw: you do a fine job moderating the forums.

Dirkiess · Jul 27, 2005, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

Slug had a bad day. Fine. Maybe he had some other issues going on that affected his judgement. But of course some of you sanctimonious s ouls never have bad days and do dumb stuff, right?

I've been reading this thread and find it kind of funny that people are still moaning and groaning about this sort of thing in game.

All i can say is, if there are so many of you that have never done a thing wrong in game, put your hands up now, otherwise everyone is being a hypocrite.

As for the part I have quoted above in BOLD, depending on how you read it, it almost sounds like the body part that everyone has.

JoDiamonds · Jul 27, 2005, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

Are you kidding? LOL! That's what every poster in this thread has been getting into.

Have we beaten this dead horse enough YET?

In short, yes, for that last line, I was totally kidding.

Sorry. My humour is deadpan in real life, too.

IxChel · Jul 27, 2005, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

Slug had a bad day. Fine. Maybe he had some other issues going on that affected his judgement. But of course some of you sanctimonious souls never have bad days and do dumb stuff, right.

So, the moderator fuels the flame-feast. Brilliant.

For the record, I've never been spiteful in the manner this fella outlined. He deliberately (and without any serious regret) sabotaged a mission in a pure act of spite/vengeance. Worse, he bragged about it and some people on this list seem to condone his action. I for one don't happen to identify at all with this fella's behavior. If someone in the guild I'm a member ever acted this way, either he goes or I go. Not only am I not sanctimonious, I put my actions where my mouth is. I stand by my position; his account should be banned. If I ever did such a thing, then my account should be banned. There should be zero tolerance for griefing.

Teklord · Jul 27, 2005, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Given this as the situation. (Note this hasn't actually happened but could, and is along similar lines as the OP's position)

I join a group going out to do a mission. The group was advertised as Mission AND Bonus. I need both the mission and the bonus, so this is all good. However being the cautious person I am, I ask everyone in team chat if this group is for Mission AND Bonus. They all one by one agree, including the group leader. We get into the mission. We're doing the mission. We get to the bonus stage, but it seems the leader is not going the proper way, or even worse (in the example of the Surmia mission) attacks the Charr and therefore throw the bonus. Even if throughout that whole time I'm saying "no wait, don't do it! We need them alive for the Bonus." Alright, now yes... I could just drop. Yes, I could just go on and finish the bonus later. In both these circumstances I have been robbed of Time. If I just drop, I have to re do it all... just I not nessecarily them. If I go on and help finish the mission, not only am I supporting those that betrayed my trust but I still lost Time as I have to come back specifically to do the Bonus.

This simply does not fly. They all knew it was for the Bonus as well. If the others say nothing, than their inaction speaks for itself and they are no longer 'innocent' bystanders in this situation. Should this person (the leader) or for that matter the rest of the group get away without any form or reprimand? Hella no!! So yes, I would think of / find some way to make them suffer a loss as compensation for my loss. In that situation I would deserve compensation, give a valid argument as to how my Time isn't worth something? Go ahead and try.

An Eye for an Eye.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
All is fair in Love and War.

Whatever. There is a philosophy to go along with just about any way of looking at a situation in this world. But in the end there is no all powerful "One God" way of looking at things that is completely 100% right in the eyes of everyone. And since there is no one Right, and I would believe my actions / response to be right then there would be no grounds to take extreme action such as banning ones account based on this. That would be called Discrimination against what I believe to be fair and just. I think this is about as clear as I can make it... but I'm sure there is someone out there that belives their form of what is Right should take precedence and to that I'll just send a big LoL.

MasterQu · Jul 27, 2005, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by IxChel

So, the moderator fuels the flame-feast. Brilliant.

For the record, I've never been spiteful in the manner this fella outlined. He deliberately (and without any serious regret) sabotaged a mission in a pure act of spite/vengeance. Worse, he bragged about it and some people on this list seem to condone his action. If someone in the guild I'm a member ever acted this way, either he goes or I go. Not only am I not sanctimonious, I put my actions where my mouth is. I stand by my position; his account should be banned. If I ever did such a thing, then my account should be banned. There should be zero tolerance for griefing.

If thats the attitude to take then the leader of the mission should be banned too, plain and simple. Again I ask why is the mission leaders time more important than the OP? You forget he lost time. Curently there is no consolation/retribution that the game can provide when these things occur. Also it does not forbid his actions that he took. Untill such balances are put into the system these things can and will occur despite whether or not our ethical code allows us to personally do the same. He excercised a freedom that is granted in the game for good or ill.

Furthermore you have the freedom to agree or not agree that the action was just / unjust, grief /not grief. Now the question is as to whether or not we want to give up the freedom of said actions in game and have anet but in a check and balance system forcing a static ethical code of conduct or do you want to maintain your own ethical freedom?

Granted the time we use to play is our spare time but to me that time is more precious than any other.

IxChel · Jul 27, 2005, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterQu

Now the question is as to whether or not we want to give up the freedom of said actions in game and have anet but in a check and balance system forcing a static ethical code of conduct

I just want an option to get as far away from griefers as possible. I suggest that Dispute Resolution via Instance Splitting or something similar might be the best option. Let someone who wants to grief do it by their lonesome. That said, if they don't want to give me a way to get away from griefers then they should ban griefing.

MasterQu · Jul 27, 2005, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by IxChel

I just want an option to get as far away from griefers as possible. I suggest that Dispute Resolution via Instance Splitting or something similar might be the best option. Let someone who wants to grief do it by their lonesome. That said, if they don't want to give me a way to get away from griefers then they should ban griefing.

Personally I think vote kicking in missions should be an option.

Magority wants to kick that goober dingle berry? HECK YEA GO FOR IT!

Syklone · Jul 27, 2005, 10:28 PM // 22:28

I am quite glad the OP did what they did, because when you get to the Sand Pit (Elonas/ Thirsty River ETC) you get some absolute tools, heck, lets just class that area just a whole tool shed or hardware store.

I believe that it can be viewed as wrong, but cripes, that leader should have learnt a valuable lesson. If someone or more than one person has more than one objective in the team, then the leader and everyone should help out and complete those objectives.

See, now the next time that dumb a$$ leader gets into a group and someone says, “Hey me an a buddy want to do ‘said bonus’”, The leader will think about this and think back to when he had his ass handed to him and may, just may, think that he shouldn’t be a tool and screw the game over like last time where he was screwed over.

You get these leaders everywhere, they are gun ho fools who run ahead or have eyes that cant read “Hey stop we want to go here for bonus”. I know exactly how the OP feels and felt at the time and personally, dropping from the team doesn’t teach a lesson, just makes the leader think you are the wanker for dropping out and being childish.

How do I know dropping out doesn’t teach a lesson? Easy, get a friend and yourself or get two PCs and another copy of the game, get both characters, your and a friend in the same group. When you both realize the leader “Capt’n Toolshed” is going in the wrong way, drop out one character out of disgust. The “Capt’n Toolshed” will bag the living $hit out of you for being a newb/n00b and quitting like a child.

What the OP did I feel justifies it and can teach others lessons.

Other than that, some people in here will argue anything over what is right and wrong and this is just a game. So please, if you have posted your opinion more than once in this thread, get a _ _ _ _ _ _ _ life.

Sofonisba · Jul 27, 2005, 10:29 PM // 22:29

In my very humble opinion, I believe everyone in that situation behaved abominably.

Except maybe for the other two people in the group. We don't hear much about them. Perhaps they were just happy enough to be tagging along with someone who knows what to do, that they decided to keep their mouths shut. You yourself (OP) said you started off trusting the leader - maybe the others never lost that trust? I don't think they were cowards, just brand-new to the game probably, and unsure what to do. This is my first on-line game, and I remember feeling uncertain at times, what was the proper thing to do.

The "leader" - was he leader just because he was at the top of the party list, or was he leader because everyone appointed him so? - was a huge huge jerk for not at least trying for the bonus. Extremely bad form on his part, and the in-game kind of unforgivable.

Of course I understand the frustration which led to your actions, Slug. We have all been in that group.

I guess I'm different, but I never "feel good" about leaving a group, for whatever the reason, and I have never intentionally ruined anything for anyone else.

To put it plainly, you should have left. You saw the warning signs. You know what the mission is about, it's not a hard one, they would have finished without you.

Meanwhile, I guarantee you 110% that that leader of the mission, to this day, has not learned any lesson you think you have taught him. He will continue to believe he always gets bad groups who don't listen, he will never ever ever blame himself - but if he does, it will not be because he watched you aggro the world, get everyone killed, and commit suicide.

I agree, I usually enjoy reading what you write, Slug.

Numa Pompilius · Jul 27, 2005, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

Slug had a bad day. Fine. Maybe he had some other issues going on that affected his judgement. But of course some of you sanctimonious souls never have bad days and do dumb stuff, right?

I'm of course only a "sanctimonious soul", definitely not a "good guy and a great contributor to this site" like drSLUGfly, but for what little it's worth I think people might be excused for thinking that statements like...
"Just revenge for a moron. I don't have that sort of temerity."
"Doc's not a griefer. Think of it as an object lesson. Maybe the guy will better determine his group's objectives before setting out on his -own- agenda next time." and agreeing that one should not simply "accept the slap in the face" and leave when someone in a team does something one do not like
...indicate support of drSLUGflys actions, so perhaps we should all go easy on the sanctimony.

Kudos to Bloodstone, IxChel, Sanji, Silmor and all other voices of reason here.
Griefing is bad. What drSLUGfly did was a textbook case of griefing.

And it's not pretty when posts which insult Silmor (calling him an "hypocrite" and "arrogant dick" for not accepting griefing and advocating leaving teams instead of griefing them) don't get deleted. (Speaking of which... Talesin: I'm officially disappointed in you. You're better than that.)

I move to have this thread locked, or preferrably deleted. It is of negative value to the community.